This transcript is from an interview that was first published on 1st of November 2020. This transcript has been edited slightly to help with clarity, the audio of this episode and more information can be found here. This interview was conducted by Liz Lea.
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Liz Lea
I started by asking Gregory, if he could talk about the extraordinary message that he has written.
Gregory Maqoma [0:30]
Well, thank you this for this invitation. I think it's, as you say, it's great at this moment, also provide us with an opportunity to connect, you know, as the world and it has also shown that, you know, the world is getting smaller and smaller. And, you know, through the internet through connection through technology. And it means that we're getting to see and appreciate each other much better. You know, when I first went into lockdown, I panicked. And it was a huge panic in terms of how are we going to survive this and questions were raised in terms of how long will this take place? And even after the COVID 19 pandemic, how will we survive? How will the theatre world survive, because we are acknowledging that our hard work our web that we put out there, it's very much about connections, but it's about people connecting with each other and connecting to people. So if that is, is something that is becoming a big threat to the disease itself, but also a big threat to us as human, as human, to be in a position where we can connect freely as we use to, it requires us to think differently in terms of how we're going to be making work in the near future. And perhaps how we'll also be, be connecting with audiences in times when we are not able to connect with them, like we used to. So traditional way of performing, will be affected, and, and will require us to think of other ways in which we can connect with audiences. And I think in the beginning, I was very much saying to a lot of people that, you know, the move to virtual reality, the move to virtual presentation of our works, takes away something that is so profound and significant about the power of art and the resilience of art in itself. And that power, it's something that I wanted to hold on to and to preserve as much as possible. So I've been refusing the temptation to put work on online to put work on platforms where they eliminate that very core function of connecting people. So one has to realise that, you know, as time moves on, you realise, gosh, this is not changing, this is not going to change. In a very near future. It might stay with us for a very long time. And so how, how do we prepare ourselves, you know, for the worst. And I think that's where I am at this moment in thinking around with, with my colleagues at Vuyani Dance Theatre about, you know, how are we going to survive? How are we going to shape or reshape our ways of looking at presenting work for the future?
Liz Lea
Well, everything you're saying resonates for me so incredibly deeply. I was due to be premiering a very big new cross-cultural work in November. And then the venue said, we're not doing any live performances this year. And that was about six weeks ago. And I went into deep grief. And then recently, we were talking and the producers, so potentially about premiering it in March next year, and they said, well, in a theatre that sits 200 we may only be able to have fifty people in the audience. And I just kind of sat there a bit like a stunned mullet going...yeah, it's it's really quite remarkable. And the notion is well of presenting work, as you say online. How do we do that? There are incredible artists who create dance film and it's specifically created in a way that should have how we present work in a way that can still engage our audiences at the same time. In a way that it's not necessarily initially created to be viewed online, and we know that. So with the international dance day message, when were you asked to write that particular message was that when COVID had hit or had you been previously asked
Gregory Maqoma 5:21
That's a question I've been getting since I wrote the message. And it wasn't, I mean, I was literally preparing myself to go to China to present that message. So the message was written way before last year, I think around November, when it was when was approved by the Board of Dance Day. And it was a message that we're preparing ourselves and our minds in presenting to, in front of an audience in China, but also to go to the rest of the world, because it also resonated with where my thinking was in terms of making work, I wanted to respond very much into the politics of the world. And I wanted to respond to, to the circumstances that were surrounding my immediate environment in South Africa. You know, where gender-based violence is a huge thing, where inequality is still very much a huge thing, where, you know, the confusion and the complexities of land is still a vacationer. I also know that it's, it's still very much an issue in Australia, you know, around land, and, so those issues were very much part of my thinking, when I'm writing that message. And I was thinking around, what is the power of dance in these, you know, how can we change the narrative, but also influence the way people think around these issues and, and to use movement, and dance to drive that message. And to, and even, you know, to amplify that message, because we talk about as messages, you know, in all spaces. But I think we've done we are able to amplify it to touch, know, the senses of people that no politician can better, you know, communicate, I think movement gives us that place and an opportunity in a space for us to connect hearts. And it's the powerful tool that we have.
Liz Lea [7:35]
It absolutely is. And it's interesting, because when I was just going to quote, and one of the lines from the message, which is, ‘we are living through unimaginable tragedies in a time that I could best describe as the post human era.’ And when I read that, to be honest, I thought to myself, I wonder if this was written before COVID? Because you're talking about the state of the world. And as COVID kind of took over our lives more and more, I went, ‘nah, no, no, no, no, no, ah,’ he must have made this in response to covered he's stuck at home. And this is an this is a tragedy. Yeah, it's, it's, thank you for sharing that history behind your very, very powerful message. Because we're, many of us, I'm based in Canberra, and there was about 30 of us, who gathered together as independent artists, either based in camera, or strongly connected to camera and responded to, to your words. And from my perspective, it was really interesting, having never met you, but reading, you know, being very familiar with many of the - Africa is very dear to my heart, and many of the incredible artists that you've worked with. And but I was literally slicing up your poem. So everybody could have a bit to dance to, which kind of felt wrong, because I kind of everybody just wanted to dance so strongly, and you brought, you brought many, many, many of us together in an incredible way. And there's been a really strong response to our little mini film. So, thank you for that.
Gregory Maqoma [9:23]
And well, I might say, just before you continue, sorry to interrupt, but I was hugely moved by the response. And especially, you know, the response that you in Australia and your company and the dancers and choreographers and makers and artists, to take it to heart and, and to look also in terms of injecting their own feelings because that's what you feel when you see people dancing even to words that it is their own interpretation of those words. But also, they bring in into that conversation, their own true feelings of where they are and how they feeling, and how those words resonate with them. So thank you very much for, for taking that task. So that's what I wanted to say.
Liz Lea
It's fantastic. But I must, I must say, we're not a company. It's just a, we're a group of colleagues. And it was yours words that made us all - like we all got, we all put the same, we all put our black clothes on, and most of the shot right into nature. And we all got everything in on time. I mean, it's unheard of.
Gregory Maqoma
Yeah, no, no, it's fantastic. I mean, it's - even here in South Africa, because what I took as a stand to, to say, How do I celebrate that day in South Africa with a wider community of South African dancers and so I, I shared quite widely in in my platforms, and with friends and colleagues and ask everybody, please ask, you know, your dancers to, you know, to dance or say a message or whatever way in which they feel they want to command on it. And then we, we put together a video that was, I think, someone made a comment that this is where dance speaks in ways that our own political rainbow nation is trying to address, has failed. So through our own input through our own reaction to Dance Day and bring the community together in their environments, which were crossing socio economic boundaries, which were crossing cultural and traditional boundaries, to be able to achieve that, it was seen as remarkable. And again, you know, I'm speaking to the power of movement and dance and the arts as knowing no limits. And our art is about, you know, breaking those boundaries, very breaking those barriers.
Liz Lea
Absolutely, goodness, you're very eloquent. Love Your Work. So, if it is not too heart-breaking, can I ask what you were working on when COVID happened?
Gregory Maqoma [12:40]
I was working on - Well, we had tours, there were three very important tours that we're putting out there. One was Via Kanana, which is a piece that I made for a community group, which is based in, in the township, one in the east of of Johannesburg, it's called - the company's called Via Katlehong, that's the name of the township Katlehong. And that work is basically their response to, to, to waiting for Canaan, waiting for that day when all the promises will be made available and possible for people to enjoy cause when our politicians go into, you know, into voting time, they all go out and make those huge promises to communities. And when it comes to delivery, none of that, you know, comes into play. So, Via Kanana is about, you know, that, that waiting of a community for, for their circumstances for their situation to change for the better, as it was the promise of our democracy. So 25 years later, that promise has not been achieved. And that work is really questioning that. And it's, it's driven by a movement, culture, dance form, which is called Pantsula which means ‘fast feet’. So which derives from American type dance uses, and combines it with our own traditional forms, and Pantsula was created as a form, you know, in the 50s \ 60s, as a way of a cultural emancipation of the people, people were coming together and the world was opening into seeing what was going on, in America in other parts of the world and they were fusing things and Pantsula like became a form that that came out of that. So I'm using that as a premise as a drive for further work. So that was put on hold. In fact, what happened is that the company left and they were supposed to be out for three weeks and do 10 I think 12 shows in different cities in France and Sweden. And they only managed to do the first performance and they had to pack and come back home. So, and this is a group of people who are depend purely on this touring, they’re not a full time company, their livelihood is made possible by them going out and being on stage and performing, that's how they make their living. So that has been put on hold. So which also affects not only them, because the most of them are breadwinners in their own homes. So it is affecting, you know, the entire, you know, household entire, being extended families, because that's how dire the situation is in South Africa that in one household, one in a household of 10 people, they could be one breadwinner, and is the person who is in charge of responsible for the livelihood of those 10 people who are living in that house. And sometimes even more. Then we had something that we have planned for, for over two years, it's me and the other leaders in the African continent, we were creating our first African Biennale, a dance contemporary dance biennale, which was to be held in Marrakech, in end of March, we had to, to cancel that because obviously, Marrakech was one of the cities that that really closed in African continent, they closed borders quite early. And we're still very hopeful that we will be able to do it, but then, you know, things got worse and worse. So that was cancelled. This was affecting the entire dance community in the continent, because it was for the first time that the continent has taken charge of putting together a festival that was inviting artists from different parts of the continent, to come to one city and celebrate their and celebrate thir offering in terms of dance. Um, previously, it's always been spearheaded by the French government or governments of other countries in Europe. So, this was the first time that as Africans, we were in charge of programming and deciding what needs to be seen by Africans. So that was our premiere we were all excited about it was put on hold, we had to stop. So we looking now at various options for that, we postponing that into 2021. Hopefully, that will happen. And the third thing that was most affected was also my own solo, Beautiful Me, which was to go to Lisbon. And this is a word that is very close to my heart, because it is a work that I made my company to survive when we were hit by the financial depression in the art scene in South Africa in, in in 2007. So I created that work because it was a solo work. And I had four musicians with me. I invited three other choreographers, who will who are my friends, but I wanted to learn and to learn more about their choices in their choreographic choices, and how do you make choices how they decide in terms of how cultural tradition informs their own work, or place of birth informs their own work. So I invited Akram Khan, Faustin Linyekula from the Congo, and Vincent Mantsoe who is South African but lives in France. And they each contributed two minutes of material through text music movement. And I, you know, at the end of the day, it was not just two minutes because there were those conversations was too long - days and days and days and days in the studio us moving. So the connection became even became more and more complex. And he raised very complex issues around you know, issues that were affecting us as a citizens of the world. So at the end of the day, I used memory to remember those conversations when I was then putting the work in context. So memory played a role in terms of driving that piece I was looking forward to performing that work again, because I have not done it in a while. So it was coming back into performing the work again in, in Lisbon in, in Portugal. And that was supposed to happen in April and that, again was kept on hold, I now am supposed to be in London. And working on a new r&d for a new work which is produced and directed by the founder of Theatre Rites. And which is based in London. And it's a work that is commissioned by Manchester International Festival, which will premiere next year. So this was our first R&D that was supposed to take place in the UK. So we looking now into early January for that r&d to happen. So, so yes, there are those things that were I was looking forward to that were designed with a very clear intention of changing the world one movement at a time, and then they all had to be on hold.
Liz Lea
Well, it's, as I'm listening to you, I'm just laughing, not in a happy way. But in a recognising, particularly with your, your solo show. I mean, it's not a solo show, because you have the musicians with you, but I was watching some footage of it. And I have to say I was like, Oh, I recognise a little bit of Kathak in there. That movements. So well Kathak is a really, it's a beautiful form. And it isn't easy to do. And I can imagine that you will have had some really fascinating conversations. But to revisit a one person show, and a really long period of time. If I may say, as a slightly older performer, myself, that's a lot of work.
Gregory Maqoma [22:08]
It is a lot of work. I mean, it's very daunting. I had to look at the video, which I don't usually do, because I you know, the minute I look at a video of myself, and I become too critical, I want to change everything. But no, I had to look at this work, and I'm thinking, Oh, my goodness, I have to do all of that. So it was a very daunting experience. But again, you know, beautiful because I am working with an amazing director, Gerrard, who goodness know him. And one of the things because I shared with him, my fears is God going back into this work. And I'm not sure if I can still manage even with maintaining the physical form of what that work demands. And he said to me, lean on to your age, lean on to the time and find a new way a new form of moving, it does not change the content, it does not change the messaging, it might just change the way you move. And that is okay. So that made me feel, you know, a little bit more like God in terms of having to go into that process again.
Liz Lea
I love that lean into your age. That's great. Yeah,
Gregory Maqoma
yeah.
Liz Lea
But the other thing is that I think when a work has been created, that has a real power, and obviously you've worked with a number of different collaborators, it means that those works, and the message will transcend time. And the extra power that comes with you, as an older performer in a different body and in a different land and time and space and, or rather landing in a different time and space. So I would say when all of this picks back up again, it'll be there'll be an extra resonance that will come from the performances. And I will try to get there somehow. Goodness. So Oh, if I may say just on a personal note, it's great to talk to someone who's - because I was touring my own my own one woman show. I was I was in England, I performed. I was working in Kuwait flying between Kuwait and England. And I performed my one woman show Red. So I totally get that whole thing of being older and still performing and does the message still resonate. And that was on the 10th of March and on the 13th of March I was flying back to Australia the day that I was due to fly back to Kuwait and Kuwait as a country shut down. Oh, yeah, and that notion of losing all your work. And I had a very, very long list of incredible things I was going to do. I haven't done any of them.
So, yeah, it's really quite a remarkable time, I guess it's that thing where you go, Oh, well, I could do all of those things that I thought I would, and then you kind of come to it, and there's a huge amount of resonance of what we may or may not be able to create. So how were you communicating with and connecting with your dancers?
Gregory Maqoma [25:42]
Well, I mean, we, we have online classes at the moment that we established, so at least to give themselves some kind of physical connection. You know, as a group, I think that's still critically important. And then secondly, we started piloting our, our (UNKNOWN) classes, which is part of our academy. So this pilot, because we’re starting next year, a formal Academy, it's always been informal in terms of our teaching, but we were formalising that whole Academy, which means now there's some theory courses. And one of the things that I'm teaching is history and anthropology of dance. And I was very fortunate that I had very good teachers like, Sylvia Glasser, who is now based in in Australia. And this is one of the things that she instilled in me in terms of, you know, understanding one's anthropology, it's also understanding the anthropology of the community you live in. And it's something that I've been very active in trying to understand the cultures of others. Hence, you know, these connections with with Akram Khan, for instance, you know, Khatak and understanding how appropriately I need to use it, and to appreciate it in ways that makes me understand in the reasons behind it. So that's what we teaching, but they also learning about entrepreneurship in the arts, learning, you know, the business of arts, and in the marketing, that, you know, you still need to, you know, you can't just be a dancer, but how do you market your work? And how do you market yourself as a dancer. and on Fridays, we have what we call the spotlight. So I invite with them, the people that they would like to see, or to have a chat with that, in their normal circumstances, they might not have an opportunity to do so. And it's open though it's worldwide. So they be allowed to dream and I do everything in my power to connect to those people that they select and to see if we can have them for an hour of you know, and have a discussion with them on zoom. So, that's where we are. This is this is what we doing in the moment. And we're hoping that we can get back into the studio pretty soon. But we are already aware, you know, I think a lot has to change. People have to embody a different mentality in terms of working. I think, you know, distancing is going to be a challenge. Because we are a company that is a family we hug each other we you know, we play with each other we so much on to each other's bodies and you know, so to do without debt is going to be a challenge.
Liz Lea
It's going to be really hard.
Gregory Maqoma
Yeah. Yes.
Liz Lea
I mean, even even teaching and being I'm, I've been in Sydney since I got back. I haven't been back to Canberra yet. And I'm very excited about going back to Canberra except that it's going to be some kind of exquisite torture. I'm not gonna be able to hug people.
Gregory Maqoma 29:31
Yeah, sure. Yeah.
Liz Lea 29:33
And yes. So I I love the notion of your dancers putting the call out saying they, they want to be able to connect with different people around the world. I admire the - your thinking behind that and the ethos of that because I think sometimes as dancers we can get so wrapped up in being in the studio and what's our talent doing what's this and the training and the choreography and you kind of forget about the the wider world at times. So I really, really admire that. And I was going to say, if you're interested, I'd be able to connect you with Elizabeth Cameron Dalman, who is I believe she's 84. No, she's 86. Still touring the world. She's amazing. She's got you guys in contact on email.
Gregory Maqoma
That would be fantastic
Liz Lea
She's just, she's fabulous. Honestly, I'll send you a little film actually, that she kind of stars in it was a film that again, we've made it in camera a couple of years ago. But she's a really, she's a remarkable woman, and, and I, and she's been touring the world with Michael Keegan Dolan's Swan Lake. And they were about to tour off to Taiwan. And there she is, you know, being glamorous and So I'll put you guys in contact.
Gregory Maqoma
It would be great.
Liz Lea
You know, you You're very welcome. You mentioned Sylvia Glasser. And I, if you could just explain a little about your history with her. She's someone else that I I've been talking to. and interviewing as well, we chatted the other day for about an hour. And she said, Oh, I need to write another book. And I was like, Oh, my lord I think you need to write about four. So if you wouldn't mind, I would love you just to explain. Because she formed Moving into Dance Didn't she
Gregory Maqoma [31:43]
She founded Moving into Dance in 1978. This was in the heart of apartheid South Africa. And, you know, she's one of the pioneering dance teachers who very early on before it was fashionable, for studios to open their doors to dancers of colour. She took that bold movement to do that. And not only just taking in students into her own environment, but she was also going into the black townships to teach, which was really remarkable and brave of her. But, you know, I think one thing that is incredible about having to be, you know, to having to learn under her guidance was the fact that she was very open to the person's ambitions. So, so our ambitions as individuals, I think, interested her. And she really, she didn't create a group of people who looked the same, like she was not interested in the core ballet, quad ballet, she was interested in people being individuals that they are stories and enhancing their own stories. And I think that's something that I've taken with me, in terms of how I shape my own companies that you know, it's about people and they’re stories and allowing them to, you know, to find their own feet and to use their stories to change, you know, their, their own situation, their own circumstances. And so she's been, she's been really incredible in that space. And when we've started coming in at Moving into Dance, I mean, I started in 1990, which makes this year my 30th year in dance when I was when I first went into a studio into a proper dance studio. It was 30 years ago. And I remember vividly walking into the studio. The first it was for the first time where I felt that I was in a space with other dancers of colour. Who were all of us were fighting for the same position equally between white, black, Indians, coloureds, we're all in the same room and fighting for the same opportunity. This was the first time in my entire life that I was in that space in that situation. Myself and Vincent and others, and I mentioned Vincent because he was my long-time friend, you know, from the township we come together from the same Township. We're already doing street dancing and working in the township, and making work but without even understanding that at that time, we're already forming in aesthetic and form. And not also knowing that we're also dealing with choreography, we were dealing with elements of teaching, because it was a shared platform of us making work and taking movements from Michael Jackson. And using it with movements of traditional dancers who are looking at, at different minds, or at different hostels, which they were, you were staying and who were fusing all of that and when we came to moving to dance, it was almost like a transition from the township environment that is not confined to anything that is so open into something that was channelling all of that into a thought process of what we will do. So, Moving to Dance provided the thought process in terms of what we were doing in enhancing already what we were doing, in order for us to develop ourselves, as teachers that we are today as choreographers that we are today. And early on. Early on, we were allowed to make work to create work as much as we were learning, we're given the freedom and an opportunity to dream and to create, you know, works.
My first work ironically, was it was a group piece, and a lot of people were making solos, I made a piece and and I realised later on that actually I was more and more comfortable in, in working with groups and collaborating with people. And I've never seen myself as a soloist. I've always seen that as a as a lonely space and Lonely Planet. Even when I get asked or commissioned to do a solo say can I invite musicians Can I can I know because then you you somehow you enlarging your community even though you know you still driving the messaging you know as a dancer by yourself on stage, but is there is a community behind you. So I feel somehow secured in not lonely. So again, with Moving to Dance is that post my dance training when I when I left for to dance in Belgium at PARTS - performing arts research and training studios - under the direction of Anne Teresa De Keersmaeker it was an opportunity for me to look at South Africa from a different context. And also to look at my own dancing and evaluate that and to to find what direction do I want to take now? And that's when I created Vuyani Dance Theatre my company in 1999. And I came back to South Africa after one year instead of doing the three years I did one year because some of the teachers who are who they do a great, great I mean, we were fortunate that year at PARTS because we had you know, we had people like (UNKNOWN) who again, you know influence a lot of my aesthetic and choices in material, David Zambrano, you know Alain Platel and it was an amazing thing time because you know, for the first time I was exposed to all these great teachers and makers of dance who were you know, just given to us, for us to explore in the way exploring us. So that was great time for me in PARTS. But also you know, most of them told me you need you need to go home you need to go back and there's nothing else that this place or Europe can give you that you can give to Europe. So, go back and work you know, and I mean David Zambrano we still love about it. He said to me, you know you need to go you need to go because this place is gonna fuck you up and I left I literally left and didn't go back to do my second year. And I created the space Vuyani Dance Theatre - I invited other choreographers that's how we started to create a, a playground and we call it a playground, to for us as artists to come together and To find something that was more significant about ourselves, and to influence and to, to inspire each other, so that's how my company was created. So, so and I continue that conversation with Sylvia, throughout. And she introduced in the school, Another course of history and anthropology of dance. And, and she invited me to be part of that, which was phenomenal, it was really amazing to, to go through that process of discovery, and which helped me along, when I was starting to do my own research with my other pieces that I was making. After that, including my own tapping into my own history through my solo Exit Exist, which looks at my, my, my family lineage, and my tradition is as a as a form to, to as a form for for the creation of the work. So, so yes, so that relationship has continued. Sylvia always says now that she listens, now that the roles have changed, because I'm advising her in terms of, You know how she should be looking at things? And I collaborated with her. In other works that she created. Then after on and advisory level. So there's been that really connection to see the wheels shifting and changing has been incredible. And and and and test it. I think our humility between the teacher and the student or a mentor in mentee Because to see that role changing has been incredible for me.
Liz Lea
That is really very very beautiful and also very generous of you. There are some or there may well be, many who wouldn't be able to or rather, there are many who wouldn't necessarily remain as loyal and connected to. Their teachers and or some of the earlier teachers in in the way that you have, and in the way that you're able to give back to her. Yeah, she and I spoke, you definitely are a huge part of her life and her psyche and the way in which she sees herself and views the world and of course, she's absolutely fascinating. I also love the way you were talking about your solo practice and the fact that - Your solo practice and the fact that you like to surround yourself with musicians, and I did notice this about your work. You quite often - you'll have musicians create work with you, which is quite yeah. I mean it, it's really enhancing for an audience obviously. And then it's another thing that comes into COVID because it isn't just getting back into a studio with dancers, which is huge anyway. It's also the musicians and everybody else who brings a show together. So I wonder if in closing I wonder if I could prevail upon you one more time to maybe just share a few words of wisdom as to how dancers and dance creators can be looking at this time and I know that we all are, but given the voice that you have and the voice that you were afforded in terms of writing and then communicating the International Dance Message and the platform that you use as well as you do I wonder if you have a few thoughts and words you could share with us during these COVID times.
Gregory Maqoma [44:08]
Great thank you – as I said in any discussion that I think you know this this time needs requires us to mourn, to lean more into the loss of you know our work. I want time in terms of the pre preparation of all these tools that are cancelled and we need to allow ourselves to mourn that loss and more often we don't. We, we are expected to, you know, to stay active and put out work online and do all kinds of stuff too, just to be seen as being active. I think it's also OK. No, it's also OK to to not be anything, but be yourself and be in the moment and allow this position to take you onto a different journey of discovering something that you might not even know that exists in oneself and personally Im in that space where I am discovering the things that I didn't know That I possess in in my own fibre and these are the things I'm holding onto to help me shape and reshape the future and to come out of this situation better prepared mentally, physically and emotionally. Rather than to come out of this situation exhausted cause you know a lot has bee asked of us to do. When we are making work to be online, let's do it with the principle of ensuring that the work that we put out there that is online It is not work that is, um You know, done in a notion of keeping ourselves busy, it is done because it is necessary for the work to be done and you still want to communicate or to be in touch with your community. Or you know people at large. I don't think this period is about the presence of our presence on screen. I think it's about our presence in terms of you know communicating - communicating our own ambitious, You know, Issues that we are battling with that we need to deal with on a broader context. Issues that we need to confront on a broader context. Issues that we need to continue to highlight on a broader context, and I think that's what this opportunity is for me is if it goes online, it's about communicating our realities on a broader context, and that's what the online platform provides. But it should also be a space. This time should be also a space for us to self-reflect and to empower ourselves. So when we get out of this we are even more resilient as people and to allow our heart to be even more resilient.