This transcript is from an interview that was first published on 28th of January 2020. This transcript has been edited slightly to help with clarity, the audio of this episode and more information can be found here.
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I started by asking: ‘when did dance start?’
James Vu Anh Pham: I actually started when I was 15, which I think is quite late, but also a nice average age for a young male dancer to begin, at that time. And it just snowballed and happened really quickly, almost out of the blue. I’d started studying music at a really young age and went to a music arts school. And I just remember having a lot of trouble performing in general. I had a lot of difficulty focusing so much energy into certain parts of my body, like my hands or my mouth, depending on what I was playing. And then I remember a friend of mine saying ‘oh, if you start a dance class maybe it’s something that can really open you up physically and help you get over this stage fright’, and so I asked my mum to take me to a hip hop class, after hours, and I just immediately fell in love with it. I don’t know what happened but I was just really obsessed. It’s one of those things in my personality: I get really obsessed with something and it’s just completely “gung-ho” tunnel vision. So I got addicted and asked mum to take me to a contemporary class and then a ballet class and then asked if I could join more dance classes in general. And then as high school went on, it got more and more intense. And then I had to choose if I wanted to continue studying music or not, because dance was basically getting in the way. And then that's when I had the conversation with my parents, towards the end of Year 10, and just said ‘look, quite clear with what I want to do, and I know that you've sacrificed so much for my music studies, but it's just not turning me on anymore. I'm not very happy doing it. And dance is giving me a new lease on life’.
Andrew: How did they take that?
James Vu Anh Pham: It was a lot. Bless them! I love my parents so much and they really support me. At the time, it was terrifying for them, and I could see that and I was terrified for them as well, because I had no idea what I was getting myself into. And they had no idea what I was getting myself into, either. They were refugees from the Vietnam War. And I was their first child to be born and raised in a Western society. And that in itself is terrifying, but then to have your child say to you ‘oh, I want to pursue a career’ in something that is just non-existent at that time in Vietnam, where do you go? What do you say? Yeah, it was a lot but they could see that I was just completely obsessed. So then they did it anyway.
Andrew: What instruments were you playing at the time? (04:32)
James Vu Anh Pham: I started playing the piano when I was six or seven. And then during primary school, I picked up the flute. And then from there, I started playing the clarinet. And then I went to high school to play the clarinet, actually. And because it’s a woodwind instrument, it's also the same mouthpiece as the saxophone, so then I picked up the saxophone. It was one of those things where, as a child, I was also really obsessed with it. So I just couldn't stop. I was like ‘I want to do this’ or ‘do that’. I just wanted to one-up myself all the time.
Andrew: Do you play any instruments now?
James Vu Anh Pham: Uh, no... I mean, whenever there's a piano in a dance studio, I would entertain myself, but I'm not doing my scales anymore.
Andrew: Does your understanding of music inform the way you dance? Obviously, music and dance are so closely linked, so I don't mean in terms of just putting on music, but do you think there’s a closer relationship between the two for you?
James Vu Anh Pham: Definitely. I think it’s kind of like riding a bike: you will always have this thing that was really close to you from a young age that would just stay with you. And especially now, working with Akram. He’s an incredibly musical person. And actually, I really see the music in his body and see the rhythms and it's so clear. And the work that we’re doing at the moment with him really demands that as well. And throughout the creation process, the composer Vincenzo Lamagna was there making the music with us, in a way. So, throughout this show, I'm kind of singing to myself, or being extremely percussive with my body in a very musical way.
Andrew: So, in terms of that coming out to your parents as somebody who's going to become a dancer, and not really knowing what that meant or looked like, you then went and studied at New Zealand School of Dance. And very shortly after you landed a gig at Chunky Move for Anouk’s first season. That must have been pretty incredible, I imagine?
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah, it was a lot. I remember getting this email from Hillary Coyne confirming that they’d like to offer the contract. I was in such a state. I had really wanted this gig and I started crying. And I remember I just had to call mum and dad to tell them, and I had a Nokia brick at the time and it was out of battery and I just kept crying and I had to run around looking for a charger to plug it into a wall. I skipped class, called them, and started crying. It was really special and came at a perfect time.
Andrew: What did you learn professionally that you weren’t taught in training? The reality of actually performing professionally is quite different than training, I imagine?
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah, I think in training—and I can only speak for my time at New Zealand—the training that we had there was really rigorous and very physical and demands a very grounded and earthy and explosive firepower... strength in the body, and I think what that taught me was a lot of resilience and how to manage strength and power in my body. And my body was really young at the time. I mean, I guess I'm still young. But, at the time, I definitely was able to continually push and push and push and continuously break boundaries and allowed myself to get drunk off of this intensity. And to take that power into a professional environment with Anouk was really special because she was really good at asking me to distil and gain a different control over this intense firepower that I bought from school. She really took me under her wing and allowed me to use my strengths in a very sustainable way. (10:17)
Andrew: The look on your face before indicated that there was this been some sort of shift in terms of that young putting it all out there to something that maybe is quite different now?
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah, especially now, working more in Europe, you get to meet a lot of dancers that are a lot older than you, you know, twice, three times older than you. We’re working with a beautiful man who's just turned 69 in the cast and to see the difference that happens… the changes that happen in the body, it’s really inspiring. And also a reminder that nothing is permanent. And every moment is like a privilege and a gift and all that la-di-da stuff.
Andrew: But dance could be accused of rarefying the young, fit body to the detriment of an older body that is often just as capable in different ways. And you do see dancers and hear of dancers and choreographers testing those boundaries. But quite often, the industry a whole kind of has this… particularly, maybe, in Australia, this focus on the youth and this focus on that demographic of dancers.
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah, I agree. And it’s something that I’ve been thinking about for a long time, and been feeling as well that there is a large number of highly employed dancers in Australia that are just in their young 20s or mid 20s. And I never really thought about it so much until I moved to Europe and noticed that the average age is kind of late 20s to early 30s. And that’s sort of considered peak. Whereas there aren’t as many dancers at that age that are working intensely in Australia in our circle.
Andrew: And why do you think that is?
James Vu Anh Pham: I’m not sure. We could endlessly speculate about it, but I feel like in Australia the work can be extremely physical and demanding. And the younger bodies are able to have that gift of recovering more quickly, and to also just blindly go in and do it and, you know, dance first think later. And I think you learn a lot on the job in that way. And then maybe everyone just goes to Europe after... gets a bit seasoned. A nicely cooked steak. When you’re nice and primed, you just go off and dance in other parts of the world, maybe. I don't know.
Andrew: Well, talking about that, you obviously did very well in Australia and you were getting heaps of work, and then you, as a primed steak, moved to Europe. What was the yearning? Obviously it’s a path that so many people have taken before, but what was it that drove you?
James Vu Anh Pham: Australia is small and isolated, but at the same time there is so much exchange between Europe and Australia for some reason. And there are a lot of Australian dancers working successfully in Europe and I’ve met a lot of those working dancers throughout my time at school and in the industry in general. So there was always this interest in that for me, personally. I was really inspired by Sidi Larbi Cherkaoui’s work. When I first started dancing, a friend of mine who’d worked with him a lot, James O'Hara—we’re both from Perth… I remember watching a lot of videos and things on YouTube because that was what you did. And I just remember seeing those videos and thinking ‘this is what I want to be doing’. Once again, one of those obsessed, tunnel vision moments. That was my goal, and it just happened so quickly. I just remember getting a call from him whilst I was in Melbourne at like 10 pm, and I was washing the dishes. And we had very random back and forth via social media the last couple of years, but then I think I'd recently done an Eastman workshop in Amsterdam and one of his dancers who was also his rehearsal director, we’d met there and I think maybe he said that he showed him a video of me or something, and then maybe James had spoken about me. I don’t know. But it just happened really quickly. And he asked if I was available to just come over and make stuff. I was like ‘OK, well, sure!’
Andrew: ‘Let me finish the dishes!’
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah… ‘I just need a moment’. It’s just really surreal when you’re so used to hearing someone’s voice on YouTube or on the computer, and then suddenly, it’s coming out of your phone and it’s interactive, so I just needed a moment. It just happened really quickly. (16:57)
Andrew: I remember when we first met you were talking about Eastman and going over there and wanting to work there. You obviously realised it.
James Vu Anh Pham: It was really unexpected. I feel really humbled and it was such a privilege. It was such a gift. Because then also it opened my eyes to many other ways of working, meeting so many people, being exposed to other cultures and realising how different the world is in other places. And, of course, the world is small, but also it’s so massive inside of it.
Andrew: What were some of those realisations?
James Vu Anh Pham: The more obvious ones like being able to work with people from all different ages and cultures and different backgrounds and different practices, that was a big thing for me. Working for a couple of years before that with Anouk and studying counter technique very intensely, that was my foundation and the thing that I was exposed to pretty much that whole time. And so to go to Europe and to meet other people that also have done the same amount of research in the physicality but in something else, another practice, and to meet them and exchange with them and learn with them, that was really special and actually really important to me at the time. I mean, it still is. Yeah, that for me was really special.
Andrew: And since moving over to Europe’s side of the world, you’ve been going back to Australia to create different things or work on different works. What’s that like going back? Are there things that you bring with you or things that kind of shift or change based on your experience?
James Vu Anh Pham: I always love going back to Australia because it’s home for me but I for sure am influenced and moved by so many people that I work with. And so, of course, it comes out in my body if I’m creating and collaborating with other people, no matter where I am, whether it’s in Europe or Australia. It’s a hard question. (20:01)
Andrew: A lot of artists talk about things that are uniquely Australian or things that have informed their work. Do you relate to that at all in terms of your dance and the things that you feel are uniquely Australian or unique to what you bring?
James Vu Anh Pham: It’s hard to say. Working with Anouk, she’s Dutch. I already felt like I was in Europe when I started working with her in an odd way. She had brought over two or three of her past company members that she worked with when she was in Holland. And so we had this European experience inside of Chunky Move, which was really exciting. But I think what was really nice for Anouk… I remember her saying there’s a groundedness in the training here in Australia and New Zealand, there’s something about the dancers in this part of the world that they’re really earthy and grounded. And this is what I typically hear a lot in various parts of the world when people reference Australian dancers: that there is this kind of firepower and fat feet grounded… rooted into the floor. Big lunges and pliés. Strong legs. Strong floor work, which I think is very typical of Australia.
Andrew: Here other people also talk about space and a different relationship to space.
James Vu Anh Pham: Oh, yeah. Like a lot of space eating. Most of the largest studios I’ve ever been in are in Australia or in New Zealand. And in Europe, the spaces are generally a lot smaller, or there will be like three pillars in the middle of the room to hold the building up. And there are a lot more dancers in Europe. So there is less space. I definitely think that somehow influences the way the dancers eat up the space or hold the space.
Andrew: You can't be slapping people in the face if you’re crammed into a tiny studio, or running into a pole that’s holding the building up.
James Vu Anh Pham: For the sake of art!
Andrew: … sustainability of your career and all that! So then, after spending quite a lot of time over there, you moved to London for new adventures. Do you want to talk about that move and where you are and what you’re doing now?
James Vu Anh Pham: That was also an unexpected turn, to be honest. I think it was towards the end of the second year of my time in Europe and, to be honest, I was getting quite burnt out and really exhausted, and I was in my mid-20s and started to get to that point where I was really asking myself a lot of questions and what I wanted to do and what I was doing and how I was doing it, and if it was giving me the same excitement and joy. It was just where I was at as a person. It didn’t really have anything to do with the work or anything that I was doing. Maybe like a quarterlife crisis or something? But I was surrounded by a lot of self-doubt and questioned dance and what my contribution was in that space and in the world. And I decided to take a bit of time off, and had seriously considered moving back to Australia. And during that time, a friend of mine sent through the Akram Khan audition, and she had said ‘look, I don't think this is for you, but I just felt compelled to send it to you’. What is that supposed to mean? But it definitely sparked a curiosity and, to be honest, when I saw the audition, I was like ‘I don't think that’s for me’. I agreed with her. Akram is such an opposite kind of dancer to me and I thought ‘well, I don’t think he would find any interest in the way that I move and maybe we have different interests’. I don’t know but that was my first gut instinct. And then a couple of days went by and I let it cook for a little bit and then I thought ‘actually, I think this is what I’m looking for… something completely different, someone to challenge me in a different way and to ask different things of me as an artist’. And I looked at the audition date, and I think we needed to be there for about a week in London, and I was working in Brussels at the time, and it was during a month of shows, and I remember I had two days that I was free that I could make it to the audition. And I thought ‘I’ll just give it a go’. And I emailed them and just said ‘look, I know it’s a big ask, but I can’t be there for the whole week. I can only be there for a day and a half. But I really would like to go so if you’re happy to have me there for that short amount of time then I’ll get the tickets.’ And it worked out and I ended up going for that day and a half. And it was a really special experience. And I had a really good feeling from it and, yeah, it worked out. And maybe like six months later, I was on a plane to London. (27:34)
Andrew: It sounds so serendipitous to have your friend and just those short days off…
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah, it just happened slowly but quickly at the same time. I can’t really describe it but it was just oddly organic. And now if I think back and I thought ‘I guess it could not have happened in a better way’. It’s just nice.
Andrew: So how long have you been with the company now?
James Vu Anh Pham: I came to the creation in March, so since then. The creation was about two or three months. And we’ve just been touring since then, quite extensively. And it’s been a real journey. I haven’t had an experience like this before. And it was definitely something that I was looking for. And I feel really challenged in the best ways. And I feel really nurtured and really excited and inspired by the people around me. I definitely had moments where I thought ‘I don’t really know if this is the right thing for me because…’ you know, there were moments where it was really difficult but then you break past your own boundaries and you really surprise yourself. It really is just a privilege to be able to have those moments in your working life. I mean, it really is just the beginning. I think we're going to be touring until ’21 which is quite daunting. I’m really excited to be a part of it.
Andrew: And is it the same work that will be touring the whole time?
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah. So it’s kind of like being on Broadway, but not.
Andrew: How is that in terms of performing the same work? Obviously, that’s so different to what you’d get in Australia. You do a short season, you might get a tour if you’re lucky, but the number of shows that you’re doing is generally somewhat limited.
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah, totally. I remember in Australia working so intensely leading up to just one season that was probably barely a week long and then maybe you would tour it a year later down the track and do like two shows in some European city and then go home, which is really difficult. There are always pros and cons with everything but with this one it’s the first time that I can wholeheartedly sink my teeth into this show and to see it grow. And to also feel myself growing inside the show. This show is so demanding on so many levels for me. I am physically pushed beyond my limits every time… emotionally, spiritually. And the work involves a lot of violence and trauma for my part. And I really have to actively take myself away from that. It’s really narrative driven, and it really takes a lot out of me to face that trauma again and again every night and so I have definitely had to learn new skills to break through that and perform authentically without hurting myself. But that, in itself, is an amazing opportunity as well. I don’t want to say ‘for the first time’ but it’s definitely a moment where I can actively connect this art form and what I’m doing with my spirituality. I guess spirituality, for me, was something that was just so beyond me, but something that I really wanted to understand more and research within myself outside of dance, but actually, in performing this work a number of times and accepting where the work takes me in terms of its extremity, I think it is my spiritual practice, actually. Because it’s this repetition. It’s this ritual. It’s this coming back to again and finding comfort in challenging myself in all of those things. That’s what it means for me, spiritually. So to be able to connect my work and my art to my spirituality and make that become one big package I… I don’t even know what you asked me before! I just went on a tangent…
Andrew: No, it sounds really lovely. That connection to what is something you’re obviously so passionate about to something that is part of a bigger question or a bigger sense of your being must be a beautiful realisation.
James Vu Anh Pham: It’s not an easy one. And it definitely didn’t come through letting go or doing less. It actually came through me doing more than what I thought I needed to do, which is kind of interesting. And I’m sure that perspective on it personally will change later on down the track. But that’s where I’m at right now.
Andrew: In the world of dance or outside of dance or wherever it’s happening, what is exciting you at the moment? What’s excited you in 2019? It could be in dance. It could be in art or music or anything. (34:20)
James Vu Anh Pham: That’s a really hard question because every day I’m being bombarded with very uninspiring things happening in the media right now. So it’s hard to see a lot of the good stuff, It’s unfortunately a really hard question, to be honest. I guess if I narrowed it down to something that inspires me is… I guess what I love about the dance world is that it has the possibility of bringing together so many different cultures, so many different people, beliefs, ways of thinking, ways of being in a space. And I’ve been really lucky in the sense of every time I do a project with a bunch of different people from different places, we always find a common ground and a way to exist and support one another and to create something really beautiful. And I feel that the amount of people that are in the room that are so extremely different from one another, but are still able to find that common ground and that connection with one another, then it’s completely possible with the rest of the world. And so I think there are times at work where I am really emotional and inspired by what I see and what is happening around me. And it really brings me hope for the rest of the world. : I actually started when I was 15, which I think is quite late, but also a nice average age for a young male dancer to begin, at that time. And it just snowballed and happened really quickly, almost out of the blue. I’d started studying music at a really young age and went to a music arts school. And I just remember having a lot of trouble performing in general. I had a lot of difficulty focusing so much energy into certain parts of my body, like my hands or my mouth, depending on what I was playing. And then I remember a friend of mine saying ‘oh, if you start a dance class maybe it’s something that can really open you up physically and help you get over this stage fright’, and so I asked my mum to take me to a hip hop class, after hours, and I just immediately fell in love with it. I don’t know what happened but I was just really obsessed. It’s one of those things in my personality: I get really obsessed with something and it’s just completely “gung-ho” tunnel vision. So I got addicted and asked mum to take me to a contemporary class and then a ballet class and then asked if I could join more dance classes in general. And then as high school went on, it got more and more intense. And then I had to choose if I wanted to continue studying music or not, because dance was basically getting in the way. And then that's when I had the conversation with my parents, towards the end of Year 10, and just said ‘look, quite clear with what I want to do, and I know that you've sacrificed so much for my music studies, but it's just not turning me on anymore. I'm not very happy doing it. And dance is giving me a new lease on life’.
Andrew: How did they take that?
James Vu Anh Pham: It was a lot. Bless them! I love my parents so much and they really support me. At the time, it was terrifying for them, and I could see that and I was terrified for them as well, because I had no idea what I was getting myself into. And they had no idea what I was getting myself into, either. They were refugees from the Vietnam War. And I was their first child to be born and raised in a Western society. And that in itself is terrifying, but then to have your child say to you ‘oh, I want to pursue a career’ in something that is just non-existent at that time in Vietnam, where do you go? What do you say? Yeah, it was a lot but they could see that I was just completely obsessed. So then they did it anyway.
Andrew: What instruments were you playing at the time? (04:32)
James Vu Anh Pham: I started playing the piano when I was six or seven. And then during primary school, I picked up the flute. And then from there, I started playing the clarinet. And then I went to high school to play the clarinet, actually. And because it’s a woodwind instrument, it's also the same mouthpiece as the saxophone, so then I picked up the saxophone. It was one of those things where, as a child, I was also really obsessed with it. So I just couldn't stop. I was like ‘I want to do this’ or ‘do that’. I just wanted to one-up myself all the time.
Andrew: Do you play any instruments now?
James Vu Anh Pham: Uh, no... I mean, whenever there's a piano in a dance studio, I would entertain myself, but I'm not doing my scales anymore.
Andrew: Does your understanding of music inform the way you dance? Obviously, music and dance are so closely linked, so I don't mean in terms of just putting on music, but do you think there’s a closer relationship between the two for you?
James Vu Anh Pham: Definitely. I think it’s kind of like riding a bike: you will always have this thing that was really close to you from a young age that would just stay with you. And especially now, working with Akram. He’s an incredibly musical person. And actually, I really see the music in his body and see the rhythms and it's so clear. And the work that we’re doing at the moment with him really demands that as well. And throughout the creation process, the composer Vincenzo Lamagna was there making the music with us, in a way. So, throughout this show, I'm kind of singing to myself, or being extremely percussive with my body in a very musical way.
Andrew: So, in terms of that coming out to your parents as somebody who's going to become a dancer, and not really knowing what that meant or looked like, you then went and studied at New Zealand School of Dance. And very shortly after you landed a gig at Chunky Move for Anouk’s first season. That must have been pretty incredible, I imagine?
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah, it was a lot. I remember getting this email from Hillary Coyne confirming that they’d like to offer the contract. I was in such a state. I had really wanted this gig and I started crying. And I remember I just had to call mum and dad to tell them, and I had a Nokia brick at the time and it was out of battery and I just kept crying and I had to run around looking for a charger to plug it into a wall. I skipped class, called them, and started crying. It was really special and came at a perfect time.
Andrew: What did you learn professionally that you weren’t taught in training? The reality of actually performing professionally is quite different than training, I imagine?
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah, I think in training—and I can only speak for my time at New Zealand—the training that we had there was really rigorous and very physical and demands a very grounded and earthy and explosive firepower... strength in the body, and I think what that taught me was a lot of resilience and how to manage strength and power in my body. And my body was really young at the time. I mean, I guess I'm still young. But, at the time, I definitely was able to continually push and push and push and continuously break boundaries and allowed myself to get drunk off of this intensity. And to take that power into a professional environment with Anouk was really special because she was really good at asking me to distil and gain a different control over this intense firepower that I bought from school. She really took me under her wing and allowed me to use my strengths in a very sustainable way. (10:17)
Andrew: The look on your face before indicated that there was this been some sort of shift in terms of that young putting it all out there to something that maybe is quite different now?
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah, especially now, working more in Europe, you get to meet a lot of dancers that are a lot older than you, you know, twice, three times older than you. We’re working with a beautiful man who's just turned 69 in the cast and to see the difference that happens… the changes that happen in the body, it’s really inspiring. And also a reminder that nothing is permanent. And every moment is like a privilege and a gift and all that la-di-da stuff.
Andrew: But dance could be accused of rarefying the young, fit body to the detriment of an older body that is often just as capable in different ways. And you do see dancers and hear of dancers and choreographers testing those boundaries. But quite often, the industry a whole kind of has this… particularly, maybe, in Australia, this focus on the youth and this focus on that demographic of dancers.
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah, I agree. And it’s something that I’ve been thinking about for a long time, and been feeling as well that there is a large number of highly employed dancers in Australia that are just in their young 20s or mid 20s. And I never really thought about it so much until I moved to Europe and noticed that the average age is kind of late 20s to early 30s. And that’s sort of considered peak. Whereas there aren’t as many dancers at that age that are working intensely in Australia in our circle.
Andrew: And why do you think that is?
James Vu Anh Pham: I’m not sure. We could endlessly speculate about it, but I feel like in Australia the work can be extremely physical and demanding. And the younger bodies are able to have that gift of recovering more quickly, and to also just blindly go in and do it and, you know, dance first think later. And I think you learn a lot on the job in that way. And then maybe everyone just goes to Europe after... gets a bit seasoned. A nicely cooked steak. When you’re nice and primed, you just go off and dance in other parts of the world, maybe. I don't know.
Andrew: Well, talking about that, you obviously did very well in Australia and you were getting heaps of work, and then you, as a primed steak, moved to Europe. What was the yearning? Obviously it’s a path that so many people have taken before, but what was it that drove you?
James Vu Anh Pham: Australia is small and isolated, but at the same time there is so much exchange between Europe and Australia for some reason. And there are a lot of Australian dancers working successfully in Europe and I’ve met a lot of those working dancers throughout my time at school and in the industry in general. So there was always this interest in that for me, personally. I was really inspired by Sidi Larbi Cherkaoui’s work. When I first started dancing, a friend of mine who’d worked with him a lot, James O'Hara—we’re both from Perth… I remember watching a lot of videos and things on YouTube because that was what you did. And I just remember seeing those videos and thinking ‘this is what I want to be doing’. Once again, one of those obsessed, tunnel vision moments. That was my goal, and it just happened so quickly. I just remember getting a call from him whilst I was in Melbourne at like 10 pm, and I was washing the dishes. And we had very random back and forth via social media the last couple of years, but then I think I'd recently done an Eastman workshop in Amsterdam and one of his dancers who was also his rehearsal director, we’d met there and I think maybe he said that he showed him a video of me or something, and then maybe James had spoken about me. I don’t know. But it just happened really quickly. And he asked if I was available to just come over and make stuff. I was like ‘OK, well, sure!’
Andrew: ‘Let me finish the dishes!’
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah… ‘I just need a moment’. It’s just really surreal when you’re so used to hearing someone’s voice on YouTube or on the computer, and then suddenly, it’s coming out of your phone and it’s interactive, so I just needed a moment. It just happened really quickly. (16:57)
Andrew: I remember when we first met you were talking about Eastman and going over there and wanting to work there. You obviously realised it.
James Vu Anh Pham: It was really unexpected. I feel really humbled and it was such a privilege. It was such a gift. Because then also it opened my eyes to many other ways of working, meeting so many people, being exposed to other cultures and realising how different the world is in other places. And, of course, the world is small, but also it’s so massive inside of it.
Andrew: What were some of those realisations?
James Vu Anh Pham: The more obvious ones like being able to work with people from all different ages and cultures and different backgrounds and different practices, that was a big thing for me. Working for a couple of years before that with Anouk and studying counter technique very intensely, that was my foundation and the thing that I was exposed to pretty much that whole time. And so to go to Europe and to meet other people that also have done the same amount of research in the physicality but in something else, another practice, and to meet them and exchange with them and learn with them, that was really special and actually really important to me at the time. I mean, it still is. Yeah, that for me was really special.
Andrew: And since moving over to Europe’s side of the world, you’ve been going back to Australia to create different things or work on different works. What’s that like going back? Are there things that you bring with you or things that kind of shift or change based on your experience?
James Vu Anh Pham: I always love going back to Australia because it’s home for me but I for sure am influenced and moved by so many people that I work with. And so, of course, it comes out in my body if I’m creating and collaborating with other people, no matter where I am, whether it’s in Europe or Australia. It’s a hard question. (20:01)
Andrew: A lot of artists talk about things that are uniquely Australian or things that have informed their work. Do you relate to that at all in terms of your dance and the things that you feel are uniquely Australian or unique to what you bring?
James Vu Anh Pham: It’s hard to say. Working with Anouk, she’s Dutch. I already felt like I was in Europe when I started working with her in an odd way. She had brought over two or three of her past company members that she worked with when she was in Holland. And so we had this European experience inside of Chunky Move, which was really exciting. But I think what was really nice for Anouk… I remember her saying there’s a groundedness in the training here in Australia and New Zealand, there’s something about the dancers in this part of the world that they’re really earthy and grounded. And this is what I typically hear a lot in various parts of the world when people reference Australian dancers: that there is this kind of firepower and fat feet grounded… rooted into the floor. Big lunges and pliés. Strong legs. Strong floor work, which I think is very typical of Australia.
Andrew: Here other people also talk about space and a different relationship to space.
James Vu Anh Pham: Oh, yeah. Like a lot of space eating. Most of the largest studios I’ve ever been in are in Australia or in New Zealand. And in Europe, the spaces are generally a lot smaller, or there will be like three pillars in the middle of the room to hold the building up. And there are a lot more dancers in Europe. So there is less space. I definitely think that somehow influences the way the dancers eat up the space or hold the space.
Andrew: You can't be slapping people in the face if you’re crammed into a tiny studio, or running into a pole that’s holding the building up.
James Vu Anh Pham: For the sake of art!
Andrew: … sustainability of your career and all that! So then, after spending quite a lot of time over there, you moved to London for new adventures. Do you want to talk about that move and where you are and what you’re doing now?
James Vu Anh Pham: That was also an unexpected turn, to be honest. I think it was towards the end of the second year of my time in Europe and, to be honest, I was getting quite burnt out and really exhausted, and I was in my mid-20s and started to get to that point where I was really asking myself a lot of questions and what I wanted to do and what I was doing and how I was doing it, and if it was giving me the same excitement and joy. It was just where I was at as a person. It didn’t really have anything to do with the work or anything that I was doing. Maybe like a quarterlife crisis or something? But I was surrounded by a lot of self-doubt and questioned dance and what my contribution was in that space and in the world. And I decided to take a bit of time off, and had seriously considered moving back to Australia. And during that time, a friend of mine sent through the Akram Khan audition, and she had said ‘look, I don't think this is for you, but I just felt compelled to send it to you’. What is that supposed to mean? But it definitely sparked a curiosity and, to be honest, when I saw the audition, I was like ‘I don't think that’s for me’. I agreed with her. Akram is such an opposite kind of dancer to me and I thought ‘well, I don’t think he would find any interest in the way that I move and maybe we have different interests’. I don’t know but that was my first gut instinct. And then a couple of days went by and I let it cook for a little bit and then I thought ‘actually, I think this is what I’m looking for… something completely different, someone to challenge me in a different way and to ask different things of me as an artist’. And I looked at the audition date, and I think we needed to be there for about a week in London, and I was working in Brussels at the time, and it was during a month of shows, and I remember I had two days that I was free that I could make it to the audition. And I thought ‘I’ll just give it a go’. And I emailed them and just said ‘look, I know it’s a big ask, but I can’t be there for the whole week. I can only be there for a day and a half. But I really would like to go so if you’re happy to have me there for that short amount of time then I’ll get the tickets.’ And it worked out and I ended up going for that day and a half. And it was a really special experience. And I had a really good feeling from it and, yeah, it worked out. And maybe like six months later, I was on a plane to London. (27:34)
Andrew: It sounds so serendipitous to have your friend and just those short days off…
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah, it just happened slowly but quickly at the same time. I can’t really describe it but it was just oddly organic. And now if I think back and I thought ‘I guess it could not have happened in a better way’. It’s just nice.
Andrew: So how long have you been with the company now?
James Vu Anh Pham: I came to the creation in March, so since then. The creation was about two or three months. And we’ve just been touring since then, quite extensively. And it’s been a real journey. I haven’t had an experience like this before. And it was definitely something that I was looking for. And I feel really challenged in the best ways. And I feel really nurtured and really excited and inspired by the people around me. I definitely had moments where I thought ‘I don’t really know if this is the right thing for me because…’ you know, there were moments where it was really difficult but then you break past your own boundaries and you really surprise yourself. It really is just a privilege to be able to have those moments in your working life. I mean, it really is just the beginning. I think we're going to be touring until ’21 which is quite daunting. I’m really excited to be a part of it.
Andrew: And is it the same work that will be touring the whole time?
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah. So it’s kind of like being on Broadway, but not.
Andrew: How is that in terms of performing the same work? Obviously, that’s so different to what you’d get in Australia. You do a short season, you might get a tour if you’re lucky, but the number of shows that you’re doing is generally somewhat limited.
James Vu Anh Pham: Yeah, totally. I remember in Australia working so intensely leading up to just one season that was probably barely a week long and then maybe you would tour it a year later down the track and do like two shows in some European city and then go home, which is really difficult. There are always pros and cons with everything but with this one it’s the first time that I can wholeheartedly sink my teeth into this show and to see it grow. And to also feel myself growing inside the show. This show is so demanding on so many levels for me. I am physically pushed beyond my limits every time… emotionally, spiritually. And the work involves a lot of violence and trauma for my part. And I really have to actively take myself away from that. It’s really narrative driven, and it really takes a lot out of me to face that trauma again and again every night and so I have definitely had to learn new skills to break through that and perform authentically without hurting myself. But that, in itself, is an amazing opportunity as well. I don’t want to say ‘for the first time’ but it’s definitely a moment where I can actively connect this art form and what I’m doing with my spirituality. I guess spirituality, for me, was something that was just so beyond me, but something that I really wanted to understand more and research within myself outside of dance, but actually, in performing this work a number of times and accepting where the work takes me in terms of its extremity, I think it is my spiritual practice, actually. Because it’s this repetition. It’s this ritual. It’s this coming back to again and finding comfort in challenging myself in all of those things. That’s what it means for me, spiritually. So to be able to connect my work and my art to my spirituality and make that become one big package I… I don’t even know what you asked me before! I just went on a tangent…
Andrew: No, it sounds really lovely. That connection to what is something you’re obviously so passionate about to something that is part of a bigger question or a bigger sense of your being must be a beautiful realisation.
James Vu Anh Pham: It’s not an easy one. And it definitely didn’t come through letting go or doing less. It actually came through me doing more than what I thought I needed to do, which is kind of interesting. And I’m sure that perspective on it personally will change later on down the track. But that’s where I’m at right now.
Andrew: In the world of dance or outside of dance or wherever it’s happening, what is exciting you at the moment? What’s excited you in 2019? It could be in dance. It could be in art or music or anything. (34:20)
James Vu Anh Pham: That’s a really hard question because every day I’m being bombarded with very uninspiring things happening in the media right now. So it’s hard to see a lot of the good stuff, It’s unfortunately a really hard question, to be honest. I guess if I narrowed it down to something that inspires me is… I guess what I love about the dance world is that it has the possibility of bringing together so many different cultures, so many different people, beliefs, ways of thinking, ways of being in a space. And I’ve been really lucky in the sense of every time I do a project with a bunch of different people from different places, we always find a common ground and a way to exist and support one another and to create something really beautiful. And I feel that the amount of people that are in the room that are so extremely different from one another, but are still able to find that common ground and that connection with one another, then it’s completely possible with the rest of the world. And so I think there are times at work where I am really emotional and inspired by what I see and what is happening around me. And it really brings me hope for the rest of the world.